Second Opinion on a Microtopping/Stain Job
Hi, I had been reading these forums which are great with the hope of doing it diy but after seeing how complicated it could be I decided to get someone who specializes in this type of work to do a microtopping and stain of my floors. My wife and I ended up rather unhappy with the work and are curious as to thoughts on the quality of work and maybe the best way to proceed.
He used Mapei Quickpatch as a thin microtopping which was hand troweled. Then Ameripolish acetone dye (saddlebrown) and lastly I believe a polyurethane sealer due to the smell (i think miiight have been Ameripolish ProGuard stain shield as I recall seeing a used container laying around, but it looked really old so might have just been used for mixing the dye/acetone).
What we don't like is how the floor is very rough to the touch whereas we were expecting it to be smooth. Also there are what appear to be excessive trowel marks and rather strange physical features in the floor. As well as a complete lack of detail in the corners and edges. We are curious if this is normal or not seeing as most stained concrete floors I've seen have been very smooth (granted probably diamond polished, but also have seen deco-poz). Also, is quickpatch an appropriate microtopping product? Doesn't appear to be from the Mapei documentation.
The local decorative concrete supplier also carries Mapei Ultraplan M20 and curious if it's more appropriate as a decorative topping than quickpatch and curious what are thoughts on having the sealer removed with solvents or mechanically, and then put down the primer and lastly ultraplan m20? If it seems reasonable I might propose that to the guy.
Thanks for any comments. Just looking for a second opinion or two. Also attached a few more pics.
Thanks a lot for the response, very helpful. I am having my doubts about whether or not he properly prepared the underlying concrete surface but I wasn't there to see for sure. I have heard the ground crack when walking around a bit which gave me the impression it might not have bonded properly. I'll see if I can have him at least grind it all away.
If when walking on the surface you here hollow sounds here and there this could be a sign of some areas where the quickpatch has/or is loosing its bond to the concrete substrate beneath it. Proper surface preparation is obviously VERY important ... knowledge in how to go about doing so (depending on the condition of the concrete, fremoval of all foriegn matter that may be lurking down in it or on it which includes previous sealers/coatings/glue & mastic residue/grouts/oil &grease/etc, taking the time to perform tests for rising moisture/vapor emmisions to be sure that they are witin the guidelines set forth by the concrete resurfacing and coatings industry in order to assure lasting bond, removal of all laittance, tc) ... this is the number 1 key to successful outcomes of any type of decorative concrete overlayment/topping, stains, coating, sealers, etc ... experience necessary to inspect and follow through as is deemed necessary as to surface preparation is what separated true professionals from shade tree amateurs, as well as provides lasting value & performance equal to investment made (which is a roll of the dice when it comes to outcomes and longevity of amateurs).
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Again ... I would have everything ground off and start over ... taking care to prepare the surface as per the guidelines of the "self-leveling" micro-topping manufacturers guidelines, apply as per their recommendations, then stain and seal again. Doing anything less is a waste of time and money IMO.
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I understand that hindsight is 20-20 vision; however, is there a reason that you didn't throw up a red flag when you saw the trowel marks and unevenness of the floor after the applicator put down the quickpatch ... before, everything was done (staining, sealiing, etc.). Work should have come to a "halt" immediately after the quickpatch was applied until the issue of trowel marks and unevenness was remedied/settled.
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Lindy A.
Honestly after they had applied the quickpatch and before applying the dye, the floor looked fine, the trowel marks and imperfections weren't obvious, but then again it wasn't completely dry yet and we couldn't walk the entire floor., also didn't know it was something to look for. Definitely would have fired him/made him remediate had I noticed at the time. Actually had to fire a sheetrock crew half way through sheetrocking due to quality issues. The next day the dye/sealer was applied and then that's when it became obvious.
I talked to Mapei, they agreed that Quickpatch shouldn't be used as a microtopping, and they said that the following is their microtopping option "Ultracolor grout mixed with Planicrete UA or Concrete Renew Fine mixed with Planicrete UA". Curious if you had an opinion on those? And definitely agree with you as far as starting from scratch, especially after talking to Mapei. Supposedly he's going to meet with us tomorrow so just want to have a good handle on the situation before talking to him.
And if you don't mind the question.. I haven't been in this situation where I've completely paid for something and found the work to be deficient.. would it be normal for the contractor to completely redo the work or refund all/some of the money? or is the homeowner typically just out the money
The contractor needs to "make you whole again." . This would mean either remedying the situation using the proper overalayment (being an "actual self leveling "micro-topping" that was formulated and designed for this type of resurfacing/modified cementitous overlayment purpose, that specially states that can be used as a wear surface that will accept acid stains, concrete dyes, sealers, etc.), being what you paid for ... or, refund you money and remove all the materials he applied back down to your concrete. Their true character will shine through as to how they remedy this situation, as well as your ability as to continuing to work with them if you decide to give them another chance (I have my doubts in this area due to their using quickpatch to begin with, which was wrong from square one, even more so if it has a hollow sort of sound in areas that is a definite sign of potential delamination/bond failure).
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The Mapei product you are referring to is one proven resurfacing option that will provide lasting/successful results so long as it is applied per their application guidelines and surface if properly prepared (which includes removing everything that is currently on floor, as well as property profiling and preping the concrete under it). Home Depot's DO NOT stock the Mapei micro-topping (or any other self-leveling micro-toppings specified for use in the decorative concrete industry, any more than other d.i.y. mega/diy/home improvement box stores); however, contractors can special order it from Home Depot contractor desk and usually pick it up within a couple of days from their local store.
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Lindy A.
Thanks for all the replies and help with this. Great site you have going here. Hopefully I'm able to come to an agreeable resolution with them.
I have used quick patch quite a bit in doing repairs and I like this product. It IS necessary to use the Mapei primer with it or it will debond. It is also necessary to have a rough texture to have a mechanical bond. then it works great. I would not use it as a micro topping as it dries SOOOOO fast and you cannot trowel it smooth. I usually shave or lightly grind out the trowell lines before a final coat of concrete repair fine over top. That is for a broom finish etc. The Concrete repair fine has a graded aggregate in it which controls the depth of the product when trowelling. So it is a grainy finish when dry. They are not meant to be trowelled smooth and stained.!! They have there place in the repair market. Mapei makes a topping for staining and it is expensive to use, but you get what you pay for. To remove the quick patch will take agressive grinding where it did bond, but is the only proper way to go. At least you will have all the imperfections filled in the substrate!!! Prime the refinished surface and start again with an approved topping material. the M20 you mentioned is good as it can be a final wear surface topping, but is very expensive compared to others on the market.
I'm pretty sure a primer wasn't used as I didn't see a bunch of containers laying around for it but I did see muriatic acid. Going to be interesting as to how well it bonded as it was fairly smooth non-porous concrete (had done a water test when i was considering to diy it). Tempting to take a sledge hammer to it to see if it will just break away in decent size chunks.
The local decorative concrete supplier has M20 and only costs $2 more than quickpatch which I did find surprising. But Mapei told me today that M20 shouldn't be used as a microtopping and especially not for decorative purposes. I was asking cause I know this contractor uses the supplier and miiiiiiiight know about and want to use it when I ask for the situation to be remediated.
You should take everything that DrJ told you about using Mapei materials to heart. He is speaking from his own personal experience using the Mapie materials ... he's a knowledgeable, experienced, profressional with a great many years of top noth decorative concrete success. There are those in supply houses that stock various decorative concrete materials who are counter sales people, who may (but probably don't have) any actual hands-on-field experience using the products they sell, with all they really know or base their responses on being what they (or you) can read from the products tech spec/data sheet of the manufacturer in relation to prep work and application (an experienced contractor will inspect every slab, all of which can be different, in order to determine the degree and type of prep work required to achieve a successful outcome that will assure maximum bond strength. Real pros that excell in the micro-topping and overlayment trade; as well as an actual tech person from Mapei/manufacturer themself; are you best sources of factual information. I'm assuming you talked to Mapei directly, not someone in a supply house about the use of Mapei materials (they have a great many different types and formulations, all having differing uses/purposes). Don't get me wrong, there are some excellent trade related supply houses whose employees are trained and/or certified by the manufactures of the materials they sell; have knowledgeable tech staff, and are pros as to application in their own right (frequently hosting training seminars) ...they are the true cream of the crop and play a valable part in the world of decorative concrete. I know you said you spoke with Mapei; but, wanted to make sure that it was not merely a counter sales or in store agent of theirs that would not be the same thing.
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Lindy A.
Totally agree. I did get an email directly from Mapei, a Technical Manager there in the concrete division (waited on the line for an hour to try to get a hold of him directly with no luck but they responded to email quickly). What's interesting about M20 is that it says in the documentation that it can be installed from featheredge to 2" and can take most stains and sealers but I guess it's meant for commercial purposes or something.
The email said in part "Neither Mapecem Quickpatch or Ultraplan M 20 Plus should be used as a microtopping. The M 20 Plus should not be used for anything relating to decorative". I had asked whether either of the products should be used as a microtopping with a stain/sealer in a residence of 1200 sq ft .
Local decorative concrete supply doesn't even carry the microtoppings that mapei said was their offering. But I would have much rathered the contractor use M20 than quickpatch if i had a choice, at least it seems a lot more appropriate especially based on Dr J's comments and the documentation. Talking to the contractor at 3pm today, so we'll see what gets done.
So the guy stood us up yesterday and is no longer taking our calls. After some more internet searching found that in a previous city he had quite a few complaints at the Better Business Bureau. So I'm guessing he won't be doing much if anything to remediate the situation... Talk about a big mistake going with him.
Lady A. I noticed you're in Waco, by any chance do you know any reputable contractors in Houston? I tried contacting HAAS previously on your contractor map but they never got back to us. But I'll try again now.
If making the big assumption that it adequately bonded to the underlying concrete, would it theoretically be possible to have it grinded/polished in order to get an a better finish?
Dinn,
Lindy is the fountain of knowledge here and you can really trust what she is saying.
The product he used is designed as a patch. I hate to say it but with the economy the way it is everybody thinks they can do everything now days to get a job. I have fixed a lot of mistakes by others that were not qualified to do what they should do. I do recommend finding a contractor that is certified and look at what he has done.
It's sad that you probably are stuck with what he did and he basically skipped out on you, But I beleive what comes around goes around.
In my honest opnion I would start all over and grind everything off. You don't want to have to worry about bond issues in the future. Now you have a clean slate . There are a lot of great products out there. and it seems you do your research. Overlays are not a DIY and should be done by qualified indviduals. You just need to find the look and product you want and then find a recommened installer that is certified to complete the job for you.
Good Luck
Keith
S&J Overlays
Dinn...
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Please send me an email Lindy.Ausburne@gmail.com with your email address. I will reply back with some decorative conrete contractors" that I will attest to are true skilled professionals that take pride in their workmanship, are focused on attention to detail, have high level of expertise in materials/systems/sealers used, further enhanced by their long standing reputations in relation to customer satisfaction and success.
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Lindy A.
I, having 30 years in this business, would NEVER use Quickpatch for this purpose (it is a concrete patching material for d.i.y. homeowners, why the person that did your floors used it is known only to them.
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A self-leveling" custom formulated, polymer modified, cementitious "micro-topping" is what professional's use.to achieve a dense smooth surface (without trowel marks such as the ones that can be seen on your photo). This material is not stocked in places like Lowes, Home Depot, Builders Square, etc. ...but, "micro-toppings" can be ordered from several different manufacturers or can be acquired (shipped or picked up) from local/regional decorative concrete material supply houses (their specifications/technical data sheets will state that they are acceptible for use as a wear surface topping that can be stained, dyed, integrally colored, etc.; in other words for "self-leveling micro-toppings that specifically state they can be used for decorative concrete flooring/resurfacing purposes" ... some of which are: Ardex STD, Mapei Ultratop, Concrete Coatings Micro-Tek, and Duraamen's Param (among other's).
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Personally, I wouldn't trust that someone that IMO exhibited did inferior of workmanship and attention to deal even prepared the concrete surface beneath it property prior to placing the Quickpatch material (again that is not meant to be used for this purpose); leaving me questioning whether it will maintain its bond to the concrete substrate beneath it ...therefore, I would grind it all down to the original concrete, apply a "self-leveling micro-topping" that is formulated for this purpose, then stain and seal it ... doing anything else IMO would be a waste of tme, money, and would be more of a cosmetic temporary band-aide instead of a lasting solution.
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If you hire another contractors, check their references and ask to see some of the work they have done. Both you and the contractor need to be on the same page as to what you want/expect in a finished surface ... ie: SMOOTH (no ridges and trowel marks) with a desired level of reflective image, within the color palette you select (note: what you see on a sample or brochure will vary to a certain degree on your floor, depending on a great many factors).
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Good luck in obtaining a resolution. I hope that you get a finished floor that will add to the aestetic beauty and value of you home.
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Lindy A.