Just attempted to stain 2 floors, need some advice please
Ok, for full disclosure, I am amateur at this and probably made newbie mistakes that may seem blatantly wrong for many here but would like advice on the best course of action moving forward. I was working with someone else who had some experience staining floors, but not as knowledgeable I'm sure as individuals here.
For house #1, what we did was first engrave the design we wanted into the floor, and then he washed the floor with TSP and water. There were some bad spots on the concrete floor from the construction process that he convinced me we should be able to patch with fast-setting concrete and smooth it out, and that it should take the stain just fine. I mentioned that everything I had read said you need to wait 28 days for it to cure, but he and another said that for small patch work, fast setting concrete should take the stain just fine. So I ordered some acid stain from a website I found online: http://www.concretecamouflage.com/cat-concrete-stain.cfm and we then stained the stripes in Onyx black:
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6590/img0080mx.jpg
We let that dry and then came back the next day and stained the body color riverstone. The problems for this house were that the patched concrete didn't really take the stain color and sticks out, and some parts of the striples that were stained black aren't dark enough to contrast with the riverstone color of the body, what I'm referring to doesn't really show up in this video but check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbPDJNiSQD4&feature=youtu.be
The patched spots look like no stain took hold, and theres parts of the stripes where its light and seems to match the body. Would concrete dye be the best thing to cover up the patches at this point? Also, would adding another coat of Onyx black to the stripes do anything to darken it and get it to catch the stain more? Would sanding the surface a bit and staining again help? Or another thing I was considering was just using epoxy paint to paint the stripes in black, since a solid color of black was the desired look for that part anyway.
The problem with the 2nd house was a bit worse, mainly that it looks as if the concrete didn't take the stain color much at all and looks bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKtpyUf_lTk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=U
From reading on the website where I purchased the stain, it says:
Also, most acid stains will not work once concrete has been acid washed, only a couple brands exist that are capable of staining an acid washed slab, so avoid acid washing and/or acid etching the concrete.
I talked to my guy and he said that for this particular floor, he had used a product by H&C which was for concrete prep, which was a muriatic acid and etches the floor. I was thinking this likely had something to do with why the stain didn't take hold in this house but did in the other? Which if that's the case, would my best bet be to use a different brand name stain that can stain that floor?
No, I haven't taken any training as you can see... and the reason for me doing it myself wasn't a decision I made on my own and wasn't really to save money, it was largely a combination of me being thrown in charge of a poorly planned project, a bad location with few options, and a low standard for what we need to pass for acceptable in the market we'll be operating in.
If concrete camoflage is your company, as I mentioned in the OP, I clearly don't have any experience with this so it shouldn't be a reflection on your stains I wouldn't think. Also, I wasn't trying to do it by myself, I hired a local guy here in this small town who had done some staining before but it became apparent after starting that he weas in over his head as well :)
I was planning to use an epoxy sealer for the first house once I could get it fixed. For the 2nd house, would turning the border black with the same type of dye work and going with a restained body color that was darker be an option?
Then follow my advice for the first floor using some acrylic tints for your patches. On the 2cd floor trying to restain will get you the same results as the first time. Mix up some solvent based dye, dilute it with some water also, and used the dye to add the colour to the floor. It will take where the acid stain didn't. On any acid stain project I do, I always bring the same colour of dye along for just that reason. Seal with a water based acrylic and topcoat with your epoxy.
Just got off the phone with Python49. I understand his problem with the floors that he has done. Just a heads up on our conversation and to also let people know the value in this forum. Python49 was following the instructions and active involvement of a hired worker who claimed to have acid stained before. Obviously he knew a bit but not a lot about the staining process. If we lived in a perfect world then he would do ok. Unfortunately he did a few basic steps wrong. Prepping a floor for staining by using acid to wash the slab. Here is an example of why we don't do that. I had assumed that Python49 was just trying to cut some corners to make a profit. I was wrong. He honestly relied upon someone who exaggerated his knowledge of the staining process. Anyway, I gave Python49 my step by step instructions on how to go forward and remedy the floor. I suggested using a solvent based dye and instructed him in the application of such. Also in picking his brain on the type of sealer he was going to use, I encouraged him to use a W/B acrylic for this particular job. It would be something he could comfortably install and serve a basic purpose. He should be able to achieve a nice floor now, with some basic knowledge and valuble feedback from this forum.
Yeah agreed, these forums have been a great resource and Dr J was kind/patient enough to walk me through some of the basics for what I should do to try to salvage the floor. Am in the process now of ordering some solvent based dyes and hopefully will be able to get things back on track.
Am glad that you have found the forum to be a sort of support group that will enable you to complete what you started out to do in a successful manner, at some point of time being able to look back and relax as you go about your daily life again. If you have any further questions let us know, we'll be here to assist in your getting back on the right pathway. You have my number (since we have talked previously), as well as the additonal helping hand of DrJ. Good luck.
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My last understanding was that you were going to apply clear 100% solids UV resistant industrial flooring epoxy as a final sealer; which has substantially higher build and wear/abrasion resistance than a low resin content water or solvent based sealer). If you have questions about either, or the use/application of both, let me know.
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Lindy
Yes, this forum has been extremely helpful, and hopefully I learn enough of the basics through this process to be able to have an easier time in the future. Guys, while I am waiting for the dye I just wanted to double check that I have the right idea since the website I was ordering some of the acetone dyes from say specific things.
The website for Direct Colors dyes (http://www.directcolors.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/how-to-concrete-d...) says to put a very thin coat of sealer on the floor before spraying any dye on. Then once the sealer has been applied and dried, then to use an acetone sprayer to spray on the dye to the color you want, then after that you would brush off any extra dry residue on the surface and seal without neutralizing/washing the surface (technician on phone said this).
He also mentioned that when doing a scored border, dont use maskingi tape, instead use a paint shield, and only to spray the dye, never brush/roll it on. Another thing he mentioned was that the sealer for sealing the dye needs to be sprayable? He said you can't use a roll on sealer?
So if all that was accurate, I was going to seal the floor, mix up the dye with acetone, spray it on with the sprayer and using a paint shield, then spray on a sealer and it should be done. Anything else I should keep in mind or does that sound reasonable?
Is there that much difference in the Dyes??????? I am looking at the technical data sheet for the dyes I use (Colormaker) and after diluting the dye with a solvent (laquer thinner) spray a coat on the CONCRETE, let dry then seal. Most other dyes I have looked at work the same way. There is NO residue. When I am using a dye ontop of a sealed floor to adjust colour, yes, I spray a light coat of sealer on top to lock in the colour, because it won't penetrate the sealer. But on a new floor without any sealer, just apply the dye, let dry, and roll on a sealer. No problem. Simple. The dye will penetrate the concrete and do it's magic. Look up Mike Miller the Concretist and look at his method of applying dyes. There was an article in the last Concrete Decor magazine that featured him dying a floor in a store, just as I described how to do it. If you want to go that long extra mile about spraying on the sealer etc, that is news to me. Must be a type of dye I am not familiar with.
About the dyes you've ordered. I just went thru the website of the company you bought your dyes from. Never heard of them. The dyes they offer are topical??? anyway they don't have any tech data sheets for any of their products listed and I find that strange. Hope if you follow all their directions that things go well.
I spoke with a representative earlier from where I ordered the dyes and he said that yeah, the website doesn't clarify it, but they only suggest putting sealer down on the concrete before spraying the dye on in situations where it's old concrete that's very pourus since it will eat up a lot of the dye and be more expensive. He said for relatively new and smooth concrete like this that you can just spray it on, let it dry, then roll on the sealer. Also, here is the technical data sheet for their dyes, it's at the top: http://www.directcolors.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/dci-dye-tech-shee...
He also said that an oil free dust mop is just used to get off particles that managed to dry before getting to the floor, because the dyes dry quickly usually, but did mention lacquer thinner that would slow the dry rate some so there would be no particles/residue. He said using lacquer thinner is also a way to get somewhat of a marbleized effect by mixing 4oz of lacquer thinner to 1 gallon of dye, since this would allow it to seperate and run to low spots of a surface. Just posting in case any of that sounds off.
yah that sounds a whole lot better!
Good luck ... sounds like you know have all the pieces to the puzzle.
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Lindy A.
I have acid washed many times and then acid stained but deffinatly not for a newby to acid wash for prepping for acid stain you must spray it down just like acid stain and then broom it in just like you would the stain then neut. with ammonia scrub with black pad squegee vac up the floor mop one time and then stain dultion rates dirffer from floor to floor but 8 gal water one galon acid good start.
grrr... just when I thought I was prepared to get started I just spent the past couple of hours reading these forums about solvent based dyes and it seems that it's normal/common for them to fade if they have any exposure to sunlight due to the UV rays? these houses are indoors but do have a good amount of windows so I'd imagine a lot of UV exposure. Am a bit concerned now?
what state r u in
OK.... Here goes..Don't quote me but this is how I understand the UV thing. I don't know of a concrete floor that doesn't get sun on it from a window. There seems to be no problem when sunlight comes in thru a window. I can't say for sure but I thinks the UV gets filtered out when travelling thru a window. That is why we never use dyes out of doors. But floors are always exposed to sunlight thru windows. Your floor should be ok.
Just finished the 2 floors and am VERY pleased with how it came out, all things considered. Clearly not the most professional quality job but I'm happy that things were salvaged from the point they were at. Here's some pictures:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3391/img0088lt.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3886/img0091awi.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3049/img0098ha.jpg
2nd one I was going for a yellow/orange'ish tan with black/gray border:
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2850/img0083xq.jpg
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/9417/img0084l.jpg - started getting dark outside so the lighting is kinda bad here
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/9876/img0074wx.jpg - the lighter color is what it looked like before applying the sealer, it's closer to the color I had in mind but the darker one looks good too
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5752/img0079oj.jpg
And yeah, thanks DrJ, I had talked with Lindy on the phone too before I had checked back to see your post and she reassured me of the same thing.
Looks like after the sealer dried it went back to the color that I had in mind when picking out the color for the dyes, which I was happy about:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4400/img0129in.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/1023/img0131hh.jpg
At least now, whether or not the floors look good will depend on how good/bad my taste is, rather than a failed stain attempt due to muriatic acid :) But yeah, this is the floor where the stain wasn't taking hold in the first video, the dyes added the color nicely.
I hope that you now can put all this behind you ... as you relax and enjoy the restored outcome.
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Lindy A.
Yes Lindy, thank you so much, and DrJ as well, you guys were extrroidinarily helpful and patient. I was lucky to find such knowledgeable advice and people kind enough to give it.
Wanted to update on how the floors look in the completed house after the 2nd coat of sealer. This forum and the people on it are amazing, I'm quite satisfied with the turn out:
I also accented the mistake that was made when scoring, which I had posted about in another thread, and think that floor came out really good too:
Very impressed with your floor..... you have learned a lot so don't consider yourself a newbie!!! That is a very professional job.
Looks like the floors came out great!
Man congratulations, I`m surprised how you came out alive from that job, lol. Really, all looks pretty good, but that mustard kitchen floor looks great! Yeah, newbye no more, but yet more to learn...
People like you turn other people off our products. Did you take ANY training? That 's it for my compassionate side. Ok to fix the 1st floor. Redo the black with a sovent based dye. Epoxy paint will be going in the wrong direction for your experience level. The patches in the floor will always take the stain differently but with such a light colour they are going to stand out. Once again a solvent based dye diluted very heavily can be used along with a paint brush to blend in the spots. Another way of doing that is to get acrylic waterbased tints from Micheal's and play with the spots to blend them in. when everything is done what kind of sealer are you using? On the second floor,short of hiring someone to install a microtopping and restaining, You could hire a Flexmar certified installer of their variegate. You would get the look you wanted and it would be done right.
By the way, did you undertake these projects to save some money? If so how much were you planning to save? Now compare that to how much it is going to cost to "fix" everything.